To: ncnca@topica.com
From: Elgart <elgart@mother.com>
Subject: State Champ
Clothing Update, 1999
Date: Fri, 17 Dec
1999 13:57:13 -0800
Final orders for 1999
State Champion clothing are due next week by the
24th. For details
about items available, procedures and costs, just reply
to this post. Voler
will be sending this order out in late January.
Cheers, John Elgart, Voler Team Apparel
======================================================================
USACycling announces the 2000 CX Worlds squad! Check out all the locals in the
2000 USA CYCLING WORLD CYCLO-CROSS ROSTER
ELITE MEN
Name, Trade Team, Residence
Bart Bowen, Saturn, Albuquerque, N.M.
Marc Gullickson, Voo Doo / Boulder / Denver Courier, Boulder, Colo.
Tim Johnson, CCB Volkswagen/Pedros/Independent Fabrication, Middleton,
Mass.
Damon Kluck, Voo Doo/Real Wheels, Boulder, Colo.
Justin Robinson, VooDoo/Real Wheels, Santa Cruz, Calif.
ELITE WOMEN
Name, Trade Team, Residence
Alison Dunlap, Team GT, Colorado Springs, Colo.
Ann Grande, Redline, Seattle, Wash.
Shari Kain, RLX Polo Sport, San Jose, Calif.
Ruthie Matthes, Trek/Volkswagen, Durango, Colo.
Carmen Richardson, Colorado Springs, Colo.
ESPOIR (UNDER-23) MEN
Name, Trade Team, Residence
Andy Jacques-Mayne, University of California, Berkeley, Calif.
Benjamin Jacques-Mayne, The Spokesman, Berkeley, Calif.
Jed Sheckler, The Valley/GT-NW, Olympia, Wash.
Justin Spinelli, SRT/Cannondale, Nashua, N.H.
Jackson Stewart, LGBRC/Steelman, Los Gatos, Calif.
JUNIOR MEN
Name, Trade Team, Residence
Josh Anthony, Essex County Velo, Beverly, Mass.
Walker Ferguson, Team Devo, Norwood, Colo.
Alan Obye, Team Grimace, Mendon, Vt.
Toby Swanson, Rad Racing NW, Puyallup, Wash.
Justin Thompson, Team Devo, Avondale, Pa.
======================================================================
From: "Kathie Northey" <jackson@2xtreme.net>
To: <zelig@cruzio.com>
Subject: help
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:38:14 -0800
looking for a used cross frame and fork under $200 for my son to race
some cyclo-cross this fall . cant find one please help, 56 or 57 he is
15 loves the cross races, more than Mt.bike. please e-mail at jackson@2xtreme.net
thank you very much.
======================================================================
Looking for a beater cyclo-cross/commute bike under $200. Email me at bjax@cwo.com Thanks!
======================================================================
US Cyclo-cross nationals! Here's a link to the entry form:
http://www.galeforce.org/cyclocross/cyclocross_entryform.asp
======================================================================
From: Tom Simonson <simonson@ncal.verio.com>
Subject: Flat bars at nationals?
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:29:16 -0800 (PST)
Cc: ncnca@cycling.org (NCNCA mail list)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b3]
Sender: owner-ncnca@cycling.org
Several people asked me about using flat bars at the cx nationals. I
checked with Randy Shafer, the Chief Ref, and he confirmed that flat
bars
*are* permitted.
The ban on flat bars is a UCI rule, so they will be banned only at the
events run under UCI rules e.g. the Elite Women and Elite Men/U23 at
the
Supercup race.
--
Tom Simonson (simonson@ccnet.com) Oakland CA
--------------------------
======================================================================
From: "Weaver,
Mark" <MWeaver@abtcorp.com>
To: ncnca@cycling.org
Subject: the
state of cyclocross these days
Date: Mon, 29
Nov 1999 09:07:30 -0800
ok, call me a
whiner, call me old school, call me a good runner who doesn't
train enough
on his bike, but tell me what the heck is up with cyclocross
courses these
days? The trend towards undisguised roadie-ism is beginning to
alarm me. I
just did NorCal districts at Fort Ord, and I have to say it was
about
the lamest course I can ever remember racing on. 80% pavement?
Drafting? Pack
Sprints? WTF?!? I thought the Surf City course at the
fairgrounds
was pretty weak in terms of technical requirements, but it was
at least recognizeable
as a cyclocross course.
If this is what
the euros are doing, i don't think i want any part of it.
Mind you, i'm
not advocating a return to the days of unbridled
"jungle-cross"
(like the '93 districts course with the 4-foot diameter log),
but I wouldn't
mind a few dismounts and runups, and maybe a few less
bunny-hops.
Over the last couple years the Surf City crew has done a pretty
nice job, i
think. Occasionally the courses have been a little fast and flat
for my taste,
but i'm sure some of the other courses were a little slow and
technical for
some folks, so it all works out in the long run. Last year's
districts in
Reno was a pretty good course, even though it was faster than i
normally like.
Even the San Jose SuperCup was clearly cyclocross.
I may be way
off base here. If i'm the only one who thinks cross courses
should have
at least one (preferably two) runups per lap, and more than 4
dismounts, just
tell me to shut up. On the other hand, if you agree, say
something.
-mark weaver
p.s. this is
not meant to take anything away from our newly crowned district
champions. at
least in the masters 30-39 class, it seems likely that kevin
and todd would
be duking it out on any course. I congratulate both of them
on a fine performance.
======================================================================
From: "rob baynes"
<rob@clsid.com>
To: <ncnca@cycling.org>
Subject: Re:
the state of cyclocross these days
Date: Mon, 29
Nov 1999 09:50:25 -0800
I agree Mark.
I do cross because I like the technical and physical
challenge, I'd
hate to see a trend toward 'grass crits'.
I think Robert
Leibold (velo promo) has done a great job putting together
courses that
are technical and use many natural features to force dismounts
(stairs, swamps,
mountains of garbage :)
rob baynes
> I may be way
off base here. If i'm the only one who thinks cross courses
> should have
at least one (preferably two) runups per lap, and more than 4
> dismounts,
just tell me to shut up. On the other hand, if you agree, say
> something.
> -mark weaver
======================================================================
From: DavidLCarr@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Nov
1999 13:56:05 EST
Subject: CX Districts
report (M30+)
To: ncnca@cyclery.com
NCNCA District Criterium,
er, Cyclocross Championship
Fort Ord, Master 30+
For years district
CX championships have been held in January, usually
contested by a mere
handful of cyclocross stalwarts. But for '99, with Natz
coming up in San Francisco,
we managed to schedule districts at a more
appropriate time.
As a result we got the biggest and best fields in memory
for a district CX.
For example, in Master 30+ alone we had 70 riders, and a
high quality field
including Kevin Merrigan (winner of Surf City #1 in the
A's); Todd Hoefer
(2nd A at SCCX #1); Rob "Buckwheat" Meighan, fresh off a
string of Master's
podium finishes at SuperCup races; Eli Rowe (recent winner
of Central Coast CX
#3 in M30+); me, a 30.5 year old "pup master"; and more.
With the quick course
at Fort Ord this looked to be a super fast race.
The circuit, as I noted
above, was more like a crit course than a 'cross
course. (See
Mark Weaver's rant on the subject.) Approximately 80%
pavement, with little
elevation gain, a little sand, and no severe runups,
this course was one
for the speed demons. Skinny tires, pumped hard, were
the order of the day.
For example, Todd ran 28c Speedmax at 105 psi, I had
my Michelin Sprints
at 80, and Buckwheat had sewup Tufo's with a light file
tread. Someone
in M30+ even had road tires on. The equipment of choice was
definitely not a mountain
bike. Watching the preceding group, the B's, fly
around the course
in a tight pack of 15 or 20, it was apparent that the race
would be all about
making the front split. With a sea breeze in your face on
much of the course,
and a real benefit for drafting, there would be no hope
for those who lost
contact.
These thoughts were
in my mind as we blasted off full speed down the long
paved straight into
the first sandy barriers. 70 guys scrambling for position
is not a pretty sight.
After the barrier, up a short rise, a chicane into a
tricky dismount, a
descent through sand, and a couple paved turns into the
only runup.
This was a shallow grade with three small hoppable barriers.
Fortunately, bunnyhopping
didn't seem to benefit anyone, as the blazing pace
punished any mistakes.
Only one guy (a K2 dude on MTB) consistently hopped,
and he didn't gain
any time with it. Actually, with so much riding it was
nice to get off and
run once in a while. After the runup came some more
climbing which opened
a few gaps, then some up and down, a 35 mph paved
descent, a hard left
turn, and a long straight into the wind. Finally a right
hairpin on sand, 300m
pavement, the final barriers, and 200m road sprint to
the finish.
Long laps by distance, but only 6-7 minutes on time.
As predicted, the split
in M30+ came early and within two laps a group of 8
was gone for good,
including Merrigan, Hoefer, me, Rowe, Mark Howland, K2
guy, Buckwheat, and
one other I don't know. We were flying, though the pace
slowed from time to
time as many of the guys were marking Kevin and
Buckwheat. At
crit race pace it was like a pinball machine in that pack.
Guys were bumping,
going down, botching bunnyhops -- it wasn't pretty. I
tried an attack on
lap four, but caught a tire on a sidewalk edge and went
down. Buckwheat hung
up on a barrier attempting a bunnyhop. Eli Rowe went too
hot into a sandy dismount
and biffed. Etc. etc.
One to go and we're
all together. The K2 guy attacked after the first
dismount and Kevin,
leading and unwilling to tow, watched him go. It would be
embarassing to let
a mountain biker win this crit cross districts... Todd
Hoefer took up the
charge, counterattacking through the runup with Kevin. I
followed K2 guy, hoping
he would bridge across, with Buckwheat and Howie
right behind.
The last half lap was sick. K2 guy surged. Buckwheat surged.
Coming into the last
dismount I attacked and led the barrier, and sprinted.
Up ahead, Kevin just
nipped Todd for the win. I held off the others for third
ot 0:05...yee haw!
I expected Buckwheat to come around but I'm guessing he
was a little burned
out from doing all those SuperCup races, plus biffing the
barrier.
Behind us, I didn't
see results in M40+ (run concurrently, 1 minute back) but
I presume Larry Hibbard
won it. I'm just glad he didn't catch the 30's! In
50+, John Elgart latched
onto a bunch of the 40's to win his race, and beat
all of 'em in the
sprint to boot.
Phew, what a race.
After a season of 1 hour races in A's it was nice to
finish in 45 minutes.
Most of the leaders decided to skip the afternoon A
race -- one dose of
suffering was enough. See you at Natz!
Cheers
Dave Carr
Napa Valley Velo/Jolt
Cola
======================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:37:51 -0800
Subject: Re: the state of cyclocross these days
From: Fred Huxham <fred@fredlabs.com>
To: "Weaver, Mark" <MWeaver@abtcorp.com>, <ncnca@cycling.org>
on 11/29/99 9:07 AM, Weaver, Mark at MWeaver@abtcorp.com wrote:
> ok, call me a whiner, call me old school, call me a good runner who
doesn't
> train enough on his bike,
.
.
.
I'm with you 100%.
I thought the course was terrible for a cross race, way too much pavement.
If I hadn't driven so far to get there, I would have just skipped the
race
and gone home. As it was I got a bad start and then got my bars
wrapped up
in the course markers as I tried to gain some ground running on the
right
side of the field through the first hurdles. Two boneheaded mistakes
and
the packs were gone. Game over.
I'm a middle of the packer at best no matter what the course, but at
least
most courses have some tricky sections which make it challenging and/or
interesting to ride. The districts course was boring. I
could ride the
whole damn thing in my big ring which is stunning for someone who usually
spends most races in the little ring. I hope it rains like hell
for the
next two weeks so we get some mud.
Fred Huxham
======================================================================
From: "Larry Hutnick" <lhutnick@minimatics.com>
To: "'David B. Gill'" <zelig@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:36:03 -0800
Hi,
Please add me to your mail list. I've raced at all of your cross
races this
year except the first one. Your series is the BEST!!! Your courses
follow
the more traditional "Euro Cross" course format and are "Super Fun"
to ride.
Unlike Surf City's "Jungle Cross" format (total exhaustion and frustration).
Best Regards and keep up the good work.
======================================================================
Subject: Re: results? uh.....
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 99 17:16:14 -0800
To: "David B. Gill" <zelig@mail.cruzio.com>
Cool man. I'm just a little excited because I think there were more
than
10 guys finishing after me.
I just read Mark Weaver's complaint about the course. I think this is
the
first time in the 4 years I've been racing 'cross that the course gave
a
roadie a chance. Ignore the complaints, more pavement, more speed.
>Hi -- it will be some time before the results
>are up. That race exposed a bunch of weaknesses in
>our scoring, both computer and manual systems.
>
>We just weren't ready for large packs screaming by
>at 30mph! Rod is working on the results, I don't know
>when they'll be out. Call him at (831) 722-6888 for
>a general idea.
>
>-David
======================================================================
From: Thorzhmmr@aol.com [Mark Howland]
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:09:28 EST
Subject: cross districts.
To: zelig@cruzio.com
CCCX gang,
I would have to echo Mark Weaver's sentiments about
the course, although
I would prefer this course to the sandy bunker that was called a cross
course
at the first Fort Ord race (SCCX#1).
My biggest complaint would have to be the lapped
riders that totally
F@#$ed up the lead breakaway in the final laps. We actually had one
Geboff
refuse to get out of our group as we came railing by. Repeated pleas,
screaming, profanities of all kinds went ignored as this guy punched
it to
sit in the middle of the lead break while he was a lap down. He was
nicely
disposed of in some ice plant (at least it was cushy). But what's the
deal?
Also I would like to personally thank (NOT!)
the KELLY rider (yes, the
one that flatted on the starting line, getting a replacement road wheel
to
race on). This rider was railed up on at a crucial point with a half
a lap to
go, and refused to get out of the way complaining that he couldn't
corner
fast enough on the road front tire. I didn't want you to go faster
dipshit, I
wanted you to get the hell out of the way! This took me off the group,
led to
a cascade effect that, I feel, had a significant impact in the set-up
for the
final sprint (with Buckwheat, Joe McNerny, Dave Carr, and myself, not
Kevin
or Todd) and outcome therein. Thanks. Kisses-Howie
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:58:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Marquis <marquis@roble.com>
To: ncnca@cyclery.com
Subject: Re: the state of cyclocross these days
Mark Weaver <MWeaver@abtcorp.com> wrote:
> ok, call me a whiner, call me old school, call me a good runner who
doesn't
> train enough on his bike, but tell me what the heck is up with cyclocross
> courses these days? The trend towards undisguised roadie-ism is beginning
to
> alarm me. I just did NorCal districts at Fort Ord, and I have to say
it
was
> about the lamest course I can ever remember racing on. 80% pavement?
> Drafting? Pack Sprints? WTF?!? I thought the Surf City course at the
> fairgrounds was pretty weak in terms of technical requirements, but
> it was at least recognizeable as a cyclocross course.
Wow, there's a 180 degree turnaround. The last Bob 'cross I went
to,
just last year, had about 16 dismounts per mile, no pavement, and no
real run-up. I skipped the race after doing a few warm-up laps because
there was too little riding, too many dismounts, and a _large_ thorn
patch.
Perhaps what we need is a grading method, say 1 to 10 with 10 being the
classic Bob course and 1 being this year's districts. This would
make
it easier to decide whether to race or do the local training ride.
How
about:
Pavement:
less than 10% of the course = 10, 90% or more pavement = 1
Dismounts:
10 dismounts per mile = 10, 1 dismount every 2 miles = 1
Running:
...
Run-ups:
...
Mud:
...
Thorns:
...
Call it the Bob-cross scale.
Roger
--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/
======================================================================
From: "Weaver, Mark" <MWeaver@abtcorp.com>
To: ncnca@cycling.org
Subject: RE: the state of cyclocross these days
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:04:25 -0800
i agree with the statement that you can never make everyone happy, and
i
think it's perfectly reasonable to have a variety of courses for cross.
there have been many courses over the last couple years that don't really
favor my skills (last year's districts, the first race at the fairgrounds
last year and this year, last year's sj super cup, the sj fairgrounds surf
city from last year), and that's fine. they were still good cross courses,
and i enjoyed racing on them, even if i didn't do that well. if i'd just
learn how to pedal a bike fast, i'd do much better on those courses.
however, i think the ft ord course went way beyond that. that's why i feel
compelled (for the first time i think) to voice my complaints about a
course.
mw
p.s. real cyclocross racers respect everyone who shows up. <poking fun
at
roadies> unlike those kook roadies, most crossers are nice folks who are
in
it for fun, not ego</poking fun at roadies>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nolan, Larry [SMTP:lnolan@corp.adaptec.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:03 PM
> To: 'Fred Huxham'; Weaver, Mark; ncnca@cycling.org
> Subject: RE: the state of cyclocross these
days
>
> I was one of the riders that benefited from yesterday's flat and fast
> course. Being my 3rd 'cross race and tipping the scales at 200
pounds, I
> know I haven't earned much respect with real cyclocross racers, but I'll
> say
> this anyway: you can never make everyone happy.
>
> This is not to say "shut up Mark" because I've met Mark and he's dead
> right
> with his comments. I agree that 'cross races should be much more
than a
> road circuit with four sets of barriers that fat and new riders like
me
> can
> lumber through. However, I don't think that we need Extreme obstacle
> courses either.
>
> At the risk of jumping to solutions, I suggest that the best way to get
> what
> you want is to make yourself heard. When our district crit course
used to
> be held on a big oval (Cherry Pie course), my teammates and others voiced
> our concerns that some of the "champions" couldn't corner well.
In 1999
> the
> criterium was held on the most technical course of the year. Was
every
> rider happy with the course? No! Was everyone
happy with the old oval
> course? No! Some years we get what we want, some other years
we don't.
> Maybe you can ignite a change for next year?
>
> Larry Nolan
> USPS Masters
>
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:29:13 -0800
From: mark weaver <markw@abtcorp.com>
To: zelig@cruzio.com
Subject: my phone number for rod, in case he's interested
hi david,
i understand rod wanted to talk to me about my opinions on sunday's race
course. my number is below (or he could just email me i guess). i'm
sorry if i pissed anyone off. i certainly appreciate the work you and
other promoters go to so that the rest of us can race. the other cx
races i've done have been pretty good courses. unfortunately, the
districts course was (in my opinion) kinda lame.
it may turn out that i'm in the minority. i don't really know what
everyone else thinks these days. that's why i posted to the ncnca list;
to get some other opinions. certainly in the 6 years i've been racing
cross, in around 150 races, i've never been on a course like that
before.
my comments aren't intended to bag on you guys. i think you generally do
a great job. i just don't want to race on a course like that again, and
if that's where cross in NorCal is headed, i'd just as soon try to stop
it, unless i'm the only one who feels that way.
-mark weaver
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:29:19 -0800
From: "Gary Davis" <gdavis@sesd.org>
To: zelig@cruzio.com
Subject: Districts
I liked the Districts course. I'm mid pack on a good day so my opinion
may not be worth the same as the sand-bagger "A's" who race masters once
a year. As far as the course, the chase group that I was in thought it
was a great course. And to address a certain 30+ rider's comments on
lapped riders, maybe there should be more "B" master categories offered
so there won't be any lapped riders, the only problem with the "B"
master races is that they are too short. Or maybe hold the 40+ (which is
what most of our chase group consisted of) and 50+ separately from the
"A's", whoops, I mean the 30+ districts. If you ran people off course,
"what a jerk", you should expect lapped riders if there is a lead pack.
If you crashed people out or rode people off the course intentionally in
any other type of racing you probably wouldn't be racing much longer. As
for myself if I hear or see a lead rider or group coming I try to move
out of the way (which isn't always immediately possible). Personally I
was taken out on the run-up mid race by some riders warming up while I
was in a chase group and it took me about a half a lap to catch back on,
and our group caught a lot of slower riders who held us up, we didn't
feel the need to put them out or scream at them, get over it, it's
racing.
Cyclocross still has a great crowd but after 16 years of racing bikes I
see more of the "compete at all costs with no respect to others a**h*le
factor" that crept in to road racing in the 80's and in to MTB racing in
the 90's. That's the price you pay for popularity.
Back to the original subject, it was cool to do something different (the
Fort Ord course) all of the Central Coast CX courses have been great,
and, all of them have had a high fun factor. So keep up the good work.
Gary Davis
LGBRC
======================================================================
From: Tom_Phillips@dot.ca.gov
To: zelig@cruzio.com
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:59:23 -0800
Subject: the course, revisited
What a course. Jeez, if I wanted to do a crit, I'd enter a crit.
This was my
first cross race, and it was NOT what I expected (or wanted). Christ,
if we're
gonna have a road race, at least put some hills in it. Maybe I'm
just bummed
cuz I can't compete on the flat stuff to save my life. End whining,
read
Mark's
comments again.
Positives - the atmosphere was great. Nice folks, mellow & fun.
May we be blessed by te gods of rain at Natz.
======================================================================
From: "Weaver, Mark" <MWeaver@abtcorp.com>
To: ncnca@cycling.org
Subject: follow-up on districts cx
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:05:02 -0800
I'd like to clarify my point of view about the districts cx course a little:
first off, I think the central coast guys do a great job of putting on
races. I know that promoting races is a pain in the ass, and we wouldn't
get
to race without their hard work. I've always defended certain other NorCal
promoters (including those named bob) because they work hard for
us, and
racing is better than not racing. The other central coast races I've done
have been great. my criticism of the course should not be taken as not
appreciating the promoters. I'm grateful that they keep putting on races.
second, the main point of my earlier message was to see what other people
thought of the course, not to rant and rave about how much I hated it.
I
probably didn't give that impression at all, and that's why I'm writing
this
follow-up. perhaps it would have been more appropriate to only voice my
concerns to the promoters. on the other hand, I think it's a reasonable
topic for discussion, and I think we bike racers should be able to discuss
it without hurting anyone's feelings. if a bunch of people say they thought
the course was great, I'm ready to admit I was wrong.
lastly, regardless of what people think of the course, I thought the race
organization was terrific, and deserving champions were crowned. kudos
to
the promoters and staff, and to the new champs, and apologies if I sounded
like I was trashing them before
-mark weaver
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:55:07 -0800
From: "Sabine Dukes" <SDukes@granite-net.com>
To: <zelig@cruzio.com>
Subject: Coarse course comments
Thanks Dave for posting the responses you guys have been getting regarding the district course. Its almost as entertaining as watching a cross race.
I have been attending or racing Keith and Rod's courses since the inception of the series a couple of years ago. I think Keith and Rod have done an excellent job of coming up with sites to "legally" hold races. The Surf City series has pared down and almost quit citing the lack of sites to hold the larger crowds. Yet K & R have managed to grow their series and come up with new venues capable of handling the larger crowds and participants cyclocross is now attracting.
Let's face it, cyclocross is a wacky sport. Part of the thrill for me as a newcomer to this sport is arriving at the venue and checking out the course. Its always fun to see what adventures the promotors can throw your way. One of the first questions I hear people asking each other is "So, whats the course like?". I am sure there are numerous variations and mutations of courses that will thrill some and piss others off. Part of the challenge of cross seems to be to deal with the course you were dealt.
We will bitch. moan, gripe and whine and we will still show for the next week's adventure. In the meantime, Alan and I are doing our rain dance.
Thanks for a fun winter,
Sabine
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:14:03 -0800
From: elgart@mother.com (Elgart)
Subject: The Euro-ness of the District Course
To: ncnca@cycling.org
Cc: jdorsay@worldnet.att.net
One great thing about cross is that every course is different ... and
I TRY
to take them as they come. Some fit my skills, some don't. That's cross.
But my personal reaction to the District CX Course at Ft Ord was that
I
loved it. Here's why.
This was the rare cross course where pack riding and strategy played
a
role. In my race we had a number of breakaways that were chased down.
And
we had a field sprint! In most cross races, I don't have to think too
much
about what kind of moves I'm going to make at the END - usually I just
keep
going till they tell me to stop. But in this race I made moves. Larry
Nolan
and I worked to catch the break. I caught the last lap flyer and got
in for
the sprint. It took some thought and was fun.
As for the general direction of cross, fast pack riding with bunnyhops
seem
to be the future (although I would not be surprised to see bunnyhops
discouraged by the UCI next season). I think this is in part because
for
spectators a pack that's breaking up makes for more exciting racing
than
one rider, followed by one rider, followed by one rider, etc.
See you at Natz, I'm sure it will be a different course, John Elgart
BTW, even though Districts was flat and fast, the top placers were pretty
much the same as always. I mean, "Mountain" Larry Hibbard still disappeared
up the road a lap into the Masters 40/50 race. Funny how that works.
======================================================================
From: Thorzhmmr@aol.com [Mark Howland]
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:54:17 EST
Subject: cross districts, or any other race for that matter.
To: zelig@cruzio.com
CCCX Gang,
In the midst of all the hubbub around the
cross districts, one point
seems to be forgotten even though we all really know it. That is, that
no
matter how good or bad a course is for any particular rider (and their
strengths/skillsets), the riders make the race. We all made the best
of a
bad, or good situation depending on our own abilities. The appropriate
champions were crowned for that particular race, on that particular
day. All
was as it should've been.
Cyclocross seems to be the one discipline of cycling
that brings more
different kinds of riders, i.e. road, track. MTB, together. I want
to thank
the race promoters for giving us this opportunity.
Howie
======================================================================
From: DavidLCarr@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 01:39:29 EST
Subject: Re: The Euro-ness of the District Course
To: ncnca@cyclery.com
Additional thoughts on district CX and other:
- Every cross course is different, and they are ALL cross. You adapt.
I
liked this one (fast) because it suited me. I hated '97 district
CX at
Watsonville (muddy) because it didn't. Both were legitimate.
- I can't fathom the people who considered not entering the race after
driving down there, just because they didn't like the course.
I didn't even
think about whether I liked the course. I just thought about
how to do well
on it, and how to beat the other guys on it. Well, actually,
I did think
about how I liked the course, heh heh...
- I am in violent agreement with John that a pack race is vastly more
entertaining and tricky to win, than a slogfest of one rider alone
against
the course. Of course, the two sides of that issue reflect a
rider's
background of roadie (me, John) vs. mountain biker (mark, howie).
- All said, I agree it could have been a more balanced course. But there
are
plenty of CX courses equally unbalanced to the other direction.
Cheers
DC
======================================================================
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999
07:13:02 -0800
From: Casey Kerrigan
<Casey@ccnet.com>
To: DavidLCarr@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Euro-ness
of the District Course
Personally I don't
like to move towards making Cross races into dirt Crits. On
this issue I guess
I'm just to Retro in that I prefer the courses that today are
considered "jungle
cross". When I first started racing Cross I remember the
true Cross riders
getting the special chain ring guards. These guards served two
roles, 1 to protect
your chainring from bending when riding over logs, rocks
etc, 2 to help keep
the chain on your single chainring ( since most cross bikes
didn't even have a
front derailure back then).
I look back to the
roots of Cross for how courses should be. Remember that
cross developed as
a way to maintain fitness in the winter and generally involved
riding/running in
a forest area near a rider's home for an hour or so. Now that
the UCI and money
are getting involved the sport is evolving into something
very different. This
isn't to say that my way of thinking is better/worse that the
people who prefer
the more modern courses.
As a spectator I still
think the best Cross race I've ever seen was an old
Tilden Park Cross
race from the late 70's. Back then we had much smaller fields
so instead of running
several different races Tilden Park was run as a handicap
race. The Tilden race
when across a large grass field, had a couple of creek
crossings and a lot
of single track. The last creek crossing was a crowd
favorite since it
featured a steep single track trail ( with a switch back)
leading down to the
creek crossing and then a short steep climb up ( no running
on that climb people
were lucky if they could get up it without ropes :) I
think today people
would consider the old Tilden course a real jungle cross.
The specific year I'm
talking about featured two riders using an old, cheap
single speed tandem
as their cross bike. I still think this is the only time
I've seen a tandem
used in a Cross race. The tandem got a 3 lap handicap over
the scratch riders
which included local Cross legend Joe Ryan. The tandem had
a real hard time dealing
with the final creek crossing. The first time they went
through it they bent
their forks so after getting to the top of the climb up
they had to stop and
bend the forks back into place. This happened every lap
but the tandem had
been given a 3 lap handicap so they were still in the lead late
into the race. It
wasn't till late in the final lap when Joe Ryan and another
rider finally made
up the handicap and passed the tandem. Still the tandem held
on for 3rd place overall.
It was a very entertaining event.
Another note of interest
is that the Tilden course was used for the 75 Cross
Nationals and was
considered a classic Cross course in it's day. Yes the sport
has changed greatly
over the years.
Casey
======================================================================
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999
08:24:33 -0800
From: David Eastwood
<dave@mountaineering.com>
To: zelig@cruzio.com
Subject: [Fwd: districts]
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 01 Dec
1999 06:13:59 -0800
From: David Eastwood
<dave@mountaineering.com>
Reply-To: dave@mountaineering.com
To: davidlcarr@aol.com
Subject: districts
dave- I was the other
guy in the break on Sunday. Dave Eastwood from
Reno.I can't believe
all the uproar in regards to the course! I know and
respect Mark
Weaver as both a person and a racer but Geez! If a road
race has too many
hills in it you don't hear the crit racers telling the
promoter to flatten
the course.They either don't show up or they tough
it out and try to
make themselves a little better in the hills. Thats
Racing. I'm sure the
Nats couse will be totally different and thats cool
too. I may be whining
in the opposite direction of Mark because of my
road background but
I also like the more technical courses(i.e Jungle
cross). Now about
Eli crashing in front of Buckwheat and me TWO laps in
a row........... Dave
could you please forward this to ncnca as I'm not
on the mailing list.
Thanks and I'll see you at Nats.
Dave Eastwood
GS Reno / GSR
======================================================================
From: "Brian
Reilly Biggs" <brian@vivid.com>
To: <ncnca@cyclery.com>
Subject: RE:
The Euro-ness of the District Course
Date: Wed, 1
Dec 1999 09:01:36 -0800
I too fall somewhere
in the middle. Too flat and my lack of fitness really
shows (Districts)
and too technical and I start to wonder why I didn't ride
the mountain
bike (uh, just about any DFL race.)
While I enjoy
any course that is thrown my way, I think it's a worthwhile
dialog to generally
agree on what constitutes a 'true' cross course. As for
the too flat
course last sunday, I seem to remember reading an appropriate
passage in Simon
Burney's cyclocross book. The reason there are dismounts
and run ups
in the first place is that when the temp is hovering around 20F
(as it's wont
to due this time of the year in the northern European
countries) your
feet start to go numb and a natural way of getting the
circulation
going is to jump off and run around for a bit.
Try racing sunday's
course in the true cold and wet (not this mild NorCal
stuff)
Brian
======================================================================
From: "Weaver,
Mark" <MWeaver@abtcorp.com>
To: ncnca@cycling.org
Subject: now
that i've read several opinions on the districts course.... i
Date: Wed, 1
Dec 1999 09:43:19 -0800
opinions seem
evenly split. a fair amount of people liked the course, a fair
amount didn't
like it. enough people liked it make me conclude that it
really was a
cross course. it's probably on the far fringes of acceptable
courses, but
i admit i don't have much sympathy with those who whine about
muddy courses
with lots of runups, so it's in poor taste for me to whine
about courses
that don't suit my strengths. with this in mind, i guess i
have to admit
i was wrong and i retract my earlier complaints and whining.
after all, the
districts course i won on a few years back was pretty much
custom made
to my specifications by the weather and bob (and Kevin Merrigan
won his class
that day too!). like many people pointed out, variety is one
of the cool
things about cross.
i can't say enough
good things about the cccx crew however, for posting
these messages
on their website and encouraging an open discussion on the
topic. i think
it leads to everyone having a better understanding of what we
in NorCal want
CX to be like.
-mark weaver
======================================================================
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999
10:07:20 -0800
From: Casey Kerrigan
<Casey@ccnet.com>
To: NCNCA List <ncnca@cycling.org>
Subject: What Cross
use to be like
All this talk about
the Dist Cross course has me thinking back to the type of
cross races I use
to do. I am a survivor of the Bob Liebold Surf City races. If
you people who think
some of Bob's East Bay Cross races are extreme you should
have ridding Surf
City back in the late 70's early 80's those were some extreme
Cross courses.
The race I remember
best was up in the Santa Cruz Mts ( I can't remember where
exactly). Things started
out Ok next to a set of RR tracks with s nice, but
bumpy, flat section.
There was a short run up into some single track forest
type section ( with
downed branches , rocks etc on the trail). Then we hit a dirt
fire road that dropped
down towards a river. Just before getting to the river
you had to dismount
and climb up the hill. The bottom part of the climb was so
steep steps had to
be cut into the dirt before the race started. After making
it past the first
section you pretty much bushwhacked ( since there was no path or
trail just pure cross
country) up hill to the next trail. This was so steep I
don't think anyone
was able to run this section. Once you were up top on the
next section of single
track you were riding along until you can around a bend
to where the tree
had fallen across the trail. The branches of the tree formed
a giant wishbone across
the path. The bottom leg of the wishbone was about 18
inches above the ground.
To get through you had the option of laying your bike
on the ground, crawling
through the middle of the wishbone and then reaching
back to drag your
bike under the branch or you could toss your bike through the
middle of the wishbone
and then you crawled through. Bob should have provided
native guides to all
the riders for that race. Still it was a blast.
Then there was the
cross race that featured going through a portion of a pond
in a cow field. The
pond was drying up so the course when through two sections of
cattails. If you stayed
right next to the cattails you only sank into the mud a
little ways. If you
got out towards the center of the "path" you could sink
down to about mid
thigh in the mud. On the first lap of the race the rider in front
of me got out towards
the middle of the mud path and sunk pretty deep. The
worst part is when
he got out of the mud his foot was bare. Yup this rider had lost
his shoe deep in the
mud.
Then there was the
race with the river crossing. This was a flowing river with
water that came up
just above the knee. You had to cross the river to round the
cone on the other
side of the bank and then come back across the river again.
There was an unofficial
contest to see who could ride the farthest across the
river. On the poster
for the 86 Cross Nationals the photo featuring Clark
Natwick shows
Clark and another rider with bikes on shoulders coming across
this river crossing.
Naturally if a course
didn't have enough mud on it you tried to make some when
ever possible.
I never did the Surf
City races that featured the sawdust mountain. I heard
that use to be a lot
of fun or the U.C. Santa Cruz course with the log pile.
None of these races
ever featured any pack riding, the sport was much smaller
then and fields were
puny by today's standards. Then again the racing was a lot
of fun and was a totally
different experience from the standard road/track
racing back then (
that was part of the whole idea to do something different
during the off season
to help keep riding fresh and interesting). Also I think
the sport was more
friendly back then since lapped riders always made way for
faster riders on the
single track sections.
Casey
======================================================================
Date: Wed, 01
Dec 1999 10:51:47 -0800
Subject: Re:
The Euro-ness of the District Course
From: Fred Huxham
<fred@fredlabs.com>
To: <ncnca@cyclery.com>
I've enjoyed reading other people's opinions on the district course.
I think my original
post was colored to some extent with my disgust for my
own lame race.
Flat and fast courses are ok by me, not what I prefer, but
there are a
broad spectrum of courses which could be called cross.
I just thought
there was too much pavement. If the majority of the pavement
had been a dirt
road, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I went and
looked at what
the UCI and USCF had to say about it. The UCI doesn't
specify anything
about how much pavement, USCF says no more than 50% of the
course should
be. I guess I should go to some of those early season
training crits
and learn how to ride on the road in a pack....
Congrats to all
the champions. Thanks to all the NorCal promoters. I
realize we're
very lucky here to have so many races to choose from. I
appreciate it.
Fred Huxham.
======================================================================
Date: Thu, 02
Dec 1999 01:41:41 -0800
To: ncnca@cycling.org
From: kf6bkg
<jefco@got.net>
Subject: Re:
What Cross use to be like/history lesson
At 10:07 AM 12/1/99 -0800, Casey wrote:
Pretty good memory, Casey.
>The race I remember
best was up in the Santa Cruz Mts ( I can't remember where
>exactly). Things
started out Ok next to a set of RR tracks with s nice, but
>bumpy, flat
section. There was a short run up into some single track forest type
This was in the
Rincon section of Henry Cowell Redwoods state park. There
was enough parking
for 10-15 vehicles near the course, everyone else had to
find an available
pull-out on Hwy 9. While the course required some
bushwhacking,
the fun part of setup was extricating Robert's vehicle from
the mud before
the start of the first race, lest it become one of the
obstacles. One
of the more persistent memories I have from Henry Cowell is
of Clark Natwick
admonishing Robert that his races weren't "representative
of a true cross
course!"
>Then there was
the cross race that featured going through a portion of a pond in
>a cow field.
The pond was drying up so the course when through two sections of
>cattails...
On the first lap of the race the rider in front of me got out towards
>the middle
of the mud path and sunk pretty deep. Yup this rider had lost his shoe
>deep in the
mud.
Last Chance Road
at the top Swanton Rd on the Big Creek Lumber property.
Losing ones
shoes was sort of a "rite of passage" there, until it stopped
raining during
the Fall & the pond dried up completely. We were eventually
booted from
that site when some residents complained cyclists were stealing
their televisions,
and the fact we represented the "civilization" they were
trying to escape
by living up in the hills.
>There there
was the race with the river crossing. This was a flowing river with
>water that
came up just above the knee. You had to cross the river to round the
>cone on the
other side of the bank and then come back across the river again.
>There was an
unofficial contest to see who could ride the farthest across the
>river.
The campground
at Henry Cowell Redwoods. We debated putting cones on either
side of picnic
benches & using them as obstacles, but went around them
instead. We
were booted from this site (and the park in general) the
following year
by park rangers who determined we caused too much erosional
damage. I think
Rob Meighan won the river-riding contest. If not, he
nevertheless
provided photographers with some great material.
>Naturally if
a course didn't have enough mud on it you tried to make some when
>ever possible.
Robert would
go out of his way to find patches of mud he could incorporate
into the course.
If the bog was wide enough, he'd toss the cones in the
middle so there
was no way to cirumvent the section. Invariably the cones
would walk,
& he would move them back during the race while admonishing the
riders for not
staying on the course & threatening them with disciplinary
action.
>None of these
races ever featured any pack riding, the sport was much smaller
>then and fields
were puny by today's standards. Then again the racing was a lot
>of fun and
was a totally different experience from the standard road/track
>racing back
then ( that was part of the whole idea to do something different
>during the
off season to help keep riding fresh and interesting).
In the early
days (for me, the mid-eighties) I thought of cross as the
"bury the hatchet"
season. Riders who'd been at their throats during the
normal, competetive,
road season would unite to see if they could survive a
Surf City course.
Little thought was given to winning the A race since
Clark Natwick
(and after that, Don Myrah) had taken over that
responsibility.
There was a season when Don Myrah would wait at the line
for about 30
seconds after the start, just to have the experience of
working his
way through the group. Groups were small. If no more than 4 or
5 Cs would show
up, Robert would ask if they wanted to wait & ride with the
Bs. If the B
showing was small as well, we'd have a single combined A-B-C
event around
11:00-11:30 am. Those who had to leave before the race started
to go to work/whatever
got refunds (refunds!?)
Course setup
usually took about 2.5hrs. We'd show up at 7 am (first race at
9, well maybe
9:30) in Robert's Datsun 510 station wagon, pull the single
registration
(card) table, chairs, & cones out, and lock the cash box in
the car. Then
we'd each grab a stack of cones and head in opposite
directions with
the intent of meeting somewhere in the middle. There was
usually an unspoken
competition as to who would cover the most terrain
before we met.
Typically, though, riders would begin to arrive at 8 am, one
of us would
quit setup to open registration, and the competition would be
off, though
Robert often claimed victory anyway.
Assuming we had
full groups, I'd take over registration while Robert
started and
scored the Cs. After the C race, he'd take over reg. and sort
the C results
while I started & scored the Bs. We'd repeat the cycle for
the A group.
This system worked well since I was a slow scorer, and wasn't
able to post
results until the A race was complete. Cleanup usually lasted
an hour, and
we were offsite in search of pizza by 1:30 pm.
Robert moved
to the Sonora area in 1990, and I reluctantly took over the
series, not
because I wanted to, but because there was a small, hardcore
following which
would have been seriously disappionted if it didn't happen.
If someone had
told me then that US 'cross would someday have large, road
crit. size packs,
I would have laughed and given them lots of room. Once I
got into it,
I eliminated some of the traditionaly extreme "Bob" sections &
made the laps
a little longer. While there was some grumbling that the
courses were
becoming too easy, they were generally well received, and the
turnout gradually
increased.
The turning point
for me was in '93 or '94 when I saw my first world
championship
video. I don't remember the location of the event, but it was
an eye-opener.
The start was crit-style on pavement, and the group stayed
together for
the first several laps. There were wide straighaways & turns,
with groups
of riders negotiating 20' wide obstacles at speed. "This isn't
'cross" I thought
to myself, and remained in denial for about a year. But
the turnout
at SCCX continued to increase and the competition became more
serious. It
became nearly impossible to arrange a start at the original
locations which
didn't result in an immediate bottleneck, and riders
multiple laps
down were becoming a problem, not just to the scorers, but
the lead riders
as well. I broke down and read the UCI guidelines, then
began to re-evaluate
my reaction to that world's video. Maybe that really
was cyclocross.
It took place in europe, right?
The SCCX transition
to the "euro" style was a result of the need to give
the riders more
room, and the pie-the-sky desire to provide more adequate
training for
international competition. I also thought it would be
interesting
to do something different, i.e. make SCCX courses more like
traditional
cross courses. During this transition period, I've watched as
many world &
euro cross videos as I can find, & visited Denmark in '98 to
see a real live
championship in person. If I've learned anything from the
experience,
it's that there's no single course which defines "euro"
cyclocross.
Of all the euro events I've seen (live or Memorex), all of them
have been different.
Though they've shared mandated similarities (minimum
course width,
number of obstacles per lap, avg. lap time, etc), they've all
had different
qualities, from flat & fast, to highly technical. And, of
course, technical
can a subjective thing depending on one's abilities. SCCX
has never had
a course which was unanimously considered the "ultimate"
cross course,
and if it did, I'd consider it a conspiracy & start watching
my back.
Thanks to the
CCCX crew (Keith, Rod, & Dave) for initiating the biggest
thread I've
ever seen about 'cross on this list, and hope to see you all at
the final SCCX
event this sunday. It will be a true euro course, whatever
that is...
--jeff
Surf
City Cyclo-X Series
http://www.cyclo-x.com
======================================================================
From: "Larry
Hutnick" <lhutnick@minimatics.com>
To: "'David
B. Gill'" <zelig@mail.cruzio.com>
Subject: RE:
cccx races
Date: Thu, 2
Dec 1999 07:55:29 -0800
Hi Dave,
Mark's comments
and mine just prove that "you can't please them all". And
if you think
about it, Cross is where two different cultures clash (maybe a
bad choice of
words), "merge". The "Roadies" and the "Mtn. Bikers". All
you have to
do is to look at the two different disciplines and see that
"normally" you
don't draft anyone on a Mtn. Bike, and conversely you don't
bunny hop many
obstacles on your road bike (not until you spend some time in
cyclocross anyway<|:-).
I do not know
what Mark's background is, but he sounds like he's been around
for a while.
I on the other hand I am in my first season of Cyclocross.
Like Mark I
was also at the Surf City cross race at the Santa Cruz fair
grounds.
This was the only Surf City cross race that I really liked. You
can keep the
rest of them.
If you see Mark,
ask him if he "ran" up the "Mud Hill" at the last Surf City
cross race.
As I went up there and took pictures during the "B" Masters
race and I did
not see anyone "run", they all walked up ... is this what a
real cross course
is suppose to be like?
I have two friends
who have pretty much infected me with the cross bug.
Both of them
are "Roadies" although we all have Mtn. Bikes that we ride from
time to time.
Their opinion is pretty much inline with mine.
Another though
Dave, might be to pole the people who visit the web page as
to their options
of this years courses.
I don't know
if this is possible but in the future it would be nice to give
Mtn. Bikes their
own class: Mtn. Bikes "B" 30+ Masters as an example. The
Mtn. Bikes would
still be run with the Cross Bikes, but the races would be
scored as Mtn.
Bikes "B" 30+ Masters and Cross Bikes "B" 30+ Masters. I'm
sure that someone
has thought of this already, and there is probably a
reason why it
can't be done, but to the beginner it seems like a good way to
score the two
types of bikes that show up at the races.
In closing Dave,
I guess that there will always be difference in options as
to what constitutes
a "Great" cross course. I've liked everyone of the
Central Coasts
courses so far.
Keep up the good work, see you at the races.
Best Regards,
Larry Hutnick
======================================================================